Curse

Neriandal Freit · Jul 01, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Best way I could ask that is there.

Has anything changed with Livia, Whispers and Olias 3-Nec build? Like is there maybe a better way of going about using them in capturing skills, vanquishing, skill titles such as Asura, etc.etc.?

Let me know if you don't mind, I'm getting back into this game after six months and I'm completely lost on all levels...

DarkSpirit · Jul 01, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

I found a better way of using them by modifying sab's build. I used the following heroes build for my Assassin Promise necro, that seems to kill faster and safer than sabway providing more soul reaping energy at the same time.

[minion bomber MM;OANDUshtSLVVBoBLCJgKgGNVVA]
[blood stained damage MM;OANDUslfSLVUBHVKgKCVV1DBEA]
[sab curse necro;OAhkYgHcoIqUegdQZwuDjIGTVVyF]

This is a dual MM build with the high level minions MM, as the only MM, having a blood stained insignia, so he takes precedence. When his energy level is low or his minion skills are in recharge is when the low level minion bomber MM has the chance to exploit the corpses. His energy level is also fueled by the minion bomber. Fiends damage is boosted further by the curse necro. Obviously this build only works well in places with enough exploitable corpses. The healing is also good enough that I only need to bring Mhenlo along as the only healer and they kill very quickly in HM with many minions attacking a target hexed with barbs.

Calista Blackblood · Jul 01, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

[shock] you have [animate bone fiend] erm ok

Johny bravo · Jul 01, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

I run 3 necros but did the following

Changed the curses necro build to be
SS, IP, Mantra of inscriptions, 4 mesmer sigs (interupts, sig of humility), rip enchant or enfeebling blood depending on area. Good for e-managament as he can cast SS and IP on recharge.

Lose Death Pact on N/RT in explorable areas or dungeons where party wipe isn't a loss and replace with Weapon of warding. Is great to dump on someone who is getting whacked on by melee.

On the Bomber I find that SoA can be great in the right situations (area dependent)

I also found that with the minion energy factory SoLS is pretty much not needed

Chthon · Jul 01, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neriandal Freit

Best way I could ask that is there.

Has anything changed with Livia, Whispers and Olias 3-Nec build? Like is there maybe a better way of going about using them in capturing skills, vanquishing, skill titles such as Asura, etc.etc.?

Let me know if you don't mind, I'm getting back into this game after six months and I'm completely lost on all levels...

Two skill changes have created possibilities for significant changes to the builds themselves:

1. Foul Feast now provides insanely effective condition removal, especially when placed on the minion bomber along with infuse condition.

2. The AI now uses Dwayna's sorrow correctly on minions, which provides a very strong constant party heal.

The upshot of these changes is:

1. The minion bomber bar gets awfully crowded, and it becomes very tempting to find a new home for the prot (which, contrary to astoundingly common idiotic belief, does not need to go on the MB).

2. The N/Rt healer becomes dramatically less important. With condition removal and party healing covered elsewhere, the N/Rt's only non-redundant role is spot healing, something that no longer requires it to be a N/Rt. You can keep the N/Rt, possibly changing its build into less redundant territory; You can replace it with a N/Mo and relocate the prot onto its bar; Or you can scrap the idea of a necro healer altogether and use another offensive necro build (or a monk hero for 4-man zones) in this position.

Neriandal Freit · Jul 01, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Two skill changes have created possibilities for significant changes to the builds themselves:

1. Foul Feast now provides insanely effective condition removal, especially when placed on the minion bomber along with infuse condition.

2. The AI now uses Dwayna's sorrow correctly on minions, which provides a very strong constant party heal.

The upshot of these changes is:

1. The minion bomber bar gets awfully crowded, and it becomes very tempting to find a new home for the prot (which, contrary to astoundingly common idiotic belief, does not need to go on the MB).

2. The N/Rt healer becomes dramatically less important. With condition removal and party healing covered elsewhere, the N/Rt's only non-redundant role is spot healing, something that no longer requires it to be a N/Rt. You can keep the N/Rt, possibly changing its build into less redundant territory; You can replace it with a N/Mo and relocate the prot onto its bar; Or you can scrap the idea of a necro healer altogether and use another offensive necro build (or a monk hero for 4-man zones) in this position.

Well, due to my lack of up-to-date skill knowledge, could you post a build of the three Necs?

DarkSpirit · Jul 02, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. The N/Rt healer becomes dramatically less important. With condition removal and party healing covered elsewhere, the N/Rt's only non-redundant role is spot healing, something that no longer requires it to be a N/Rt. You can keep the N/Rt, possibly changing its build into less redundant territory; You can replace it with a N/Mo and relocate the prot onto its bar; Or you can scrap the idea of a necro healer altogether and use another offensive necro build (or a monk hero for 4-man zones) in this position.

The bolded part is true. I can almost always increase the damage from sab's build by replacing the healer with another MM.

cellardweller · Jul 02, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Losing the the N/Rt also means you're losing the [splinter weapon] and [ancestor's rage] which is a huge part team's of the dps.

Lina does just fine for me - I'd sooner lose the hero based prot spells.

DarkSpirit · Jul 02, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Losing the the N/Rt also means you're losing the [splinter weapon] and [ancestor's rage] which is a huge part team's of the dps.

Lina does just fine for me - I'd sooner lose the hero based prot spells.

[[Splinter Weapon] is usually carried by sab's SS curse N/Rt, not the healer N/Rt. As for [[Ancestor's Rage], it doesn't work very well with only 10 to Channeling anyway. But bring it if you intend to use a primary rit with 14 to Channeling. This is why sab left it out of her 3-necros build. Lina's energy management sucks compared to a necro hero who can spam Protective Spirit.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10292641

I basically replaced her healer N/Rt with her MM variant, thus having 2 MMs for greater damage, meat shields, and energy, but still having decent healing in HM with Dwayna's Sorrow. Furthermore, without her variant MM bomber, her main fiend MM doesn't generate enough soul reaping energy as fiends tend to stay in the backlines, instead of exploding with death nova, in the frontlines.

Calista Blackblood · Jul 02, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

[[Splinter Weapon] Furthermore, without her variant MM bomber, her main fiend MM doesn't generate enough soul reaping energy as fiends tend to stay in the backlines, instead of exploding with death nova, in the frontlines.

fiends dont go right into battle,making them bad for bombing(theyre the only ranged (approx shortbow range) attacking minions in the game iirc). not to mention their laughable energy cost per 1 minion

cellardweller · Jul 02, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

[[Splinter Weapon] is carried by sab's SS curse necro. As for [[Ancestor's Rage], it doesn't work very well with only 10 to Channeling anyway. But bring it if you intend to use a primary rit with 14 to Channeling. This is why Sab left it out of his 3-necros build.

My SS is busy carrying dwayna's sorrow (and doesn't have SS... because it doesn't do any damage to a foe thats knocked down). This tripple nec build specifically set up to complement an earthshaker warrior.
[Empathic Removal][barbs][mark of pain][rip enchantment][signet of lost souls][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][spirit bond] ([protective spirit] in factions)
[Jagged Bones][animate bone minions][putrid explosion][putrid bile][foul feast][infuse condition][death nova][dwayna's sorrow]
[reaper's mark][splinter weapon][ancestor's rage][spirit rift][life][protective was Kaolai][mend body and soul][signet of lost souls]
mb&s and spirit bond are specificly required due to mhenlo having [vigorous spirit] which leads to a bodyblocker getting spiked before they can get enough adrenaline for the first ES.

If a hero could use offering of spirit correctly then yes, a rit would be better, util then a 12 spec channel with energy is better than a 14 spec channel without.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Furthermore, without her variant MM bomber, her main fiend MM doesn't generate enough soul reaping energy as fiends tend to stay in the backlines, instead of exploding with death nova, in the frontlines.

This statement makes me think that something is off with your build. The SR timer cap should always be reached by monster deaths before minions are even factored in.

DarkSpirit · Jul 02, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

fiends dont go right into battle,making them bad for bombing(theyre the only ranged (approx shortbow range) attacking minions in the game iirc). not to mention their laughable energy cost per 1 minion

I totally agree. Fiends strength is in damage especially when used with barbs and Mark of Pain, not as expensive backline minion bombs. Shamblings can bomb but shamblings are expensive in terms of their recharge time per minion. Bone minions just make better bombs, you get 2 bone minions per corpse, fast recharge, for only 15e and they stay in the frontline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

This statement makes me think that something is off with your build. The SR timer cap should always be reached by monster deaths before minions are even factored in.

The thing is monsters are also not dying fast enough in HM with sab's fiend bombing MM because fiends are too expensive and I have observed the fiend MM to be in single digit energy during most of the battle. Without enough energy, the MM cant create fiends fast enough, during battle, and animate shamblings has too long a recharge to be used as effective bombs.

But since I have coupled the fiend MM with a minion bomber, the team becomes alot stronger since minion bombing has become cheaper through bone minions, and more effective, soul reaping energy also increased significantly across all the necros in the team. Fiends get created alot quicker during battle and the damage multiplied very fast.

The damage is definitely greater with a second MM than with a dedicated healer which you wont need, with enough minions to fuel [[Dwayna's Sorrow], more meat shields, more soul reaping energy, and greater damage on your team.

Calista Blackblood · Jul 02, 2008, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

more soul reaping energy until i hit my 3x in 15 secs cap, and greater damage on your team.

took the liberty to fix

DarkSpirit · Jul 02, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Even 3x in 15s is still > 0x in 15s from a dedicated healer hero.

Monsters are just not dying fast enough in some of the advanced areas of HM.

cellardweller · Jul 02, 2008, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The thing is monsters are also not dying fast enough in HM with sab's fiend bombing MM because fiends are too expensive and I have observed the fiend MM to be in single digit energy during most of the battle. Without enough energy, the MM cant create fiends fast enough, during battle, and animate shamblings has too long a recharge to be used as effective bombs.

But why are you using fiends on a bomber in the first place?

DarkSpirit · Jul 02, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

But why are you using fiends on a bomber in the first place?

I am not. But the original sabway build has a fiend/shambling MM with Death Nova. Whether you call the MM a bomber or not doesn't matter. What matters more is, the low energy level of the fiend MM during battle, in HM, which affects the rate of fiend production when damage is needed.

Without enough fiends, damage suffers and when damage goes down, monsters do not die fast enough to fuel soul reaping's 3x/15s. So without enough energy, the MM cant make enough fiends, forming a vicious cycle.

A minion bomber can break that cycle by creating bone minions, if the fiend MM can't exploit the corpses, causing substantial damage through bombing, even fueling soul reaping in the process. The fiend MM would then be able to start take over corpse exploitation, through his blood stained insignia, by creating fiends when his energy replenishes.

cellardweller · Jul 02, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

While the original contained a fiend, this is the last one I've seen posted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sab

[build prof=N/Mo death=12+1+3 sou=9+1 hea=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Putrid Bile][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

Regardless, we're talking about the generic SR synergy 3 necro builds here, not the specific versions posted by sab.

In my experience, fiends are amongst the lowest dps minions - they don't understand that they can't attack around corners and can't be flagged for LoS. This means you have to choose between thier DPS and the Massive DPS increase a corner blocker gives by ensuring that Mark of Pain (an all other adjacent AoE's) hits every enemy.

Bloodseeker · Jul 02, 2008, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Play Discordway with you with assassins promise, owns every area to vanquish, check wiki for details

DarkSpirit · Jul 02, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

While the original contained a fiend, this is the last one I've seen posted:

That one is now a variant of the MM build. The latest version of the MM has Animate Fiends and Shamblings.

Quote:

In my experience, fiends are amongst the lowest dps minions - they don't understand that they can't attack around corners and can't be flagged for LoS. This means you have to choose between thier DPS and the Massive DPS increase a corner blocker gives by ensuring that Mark of Pain (an all other adjacent AoE's) hits every enemy.

Fiends attack with a speed of about 1 attack every 1.9s with a mean damage per attack of 27.5 against an AL60 target.

Bone Horrors attack at a speed of 1 attack every 3.17s with a mean damage per attack of 27.5 against an AL60 target.

Fiend attacks are stronger over the same length of time, and if you add in [[Barbs] bonus and [[Mark of Pain], they are even more devastating. This is partly why fiends require such high energy cost.

Also melee AI has pathing issues especially when fleeing from AoE attacks, and they can be body-blocked from reaching their intended target. Ranged AI is more reliable and switches target faster when needed.

Cebe · Jul 02, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Moved to Hero & AI Forum.

Just so ya know, there are many threads in this forum about Necros if you fancy looking any of those out for more info.

One of the newer ones: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10292641